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Post by samsara15 on May 10, 2014 15:01:05 GMT -6
skylar, you have a strong opinion about Free Will, because it is essential to your doctrine, but I'm just a dabbler on the sea shore, and for me, it's not that essential of an issue. I just read about it in various places, and note that it seems not to be a settled issue, or that determinism seems to be winning out, but I don't have a horse in the race, as the saying goes.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2014 18:18:43 GMT -6
I think Free Will involves a lot more than just that one question. I think our actions and decisions are based on many factors, both psychological and physical, some of which are out of our control. It is true that no one is forcing you to make that choice, but a person's decision would be predictable, based on those factors. Philosophers such as John Searle argue that we are no more free than our liver or stomach. I get lost in the complexity of their arguments, and am not solidly on either side, but am wary of endorsing the concept of Free Will in face of so much doubt. Are our choices random? If not, what determines them, and how we make them? You have made some good points according to your way of thinking, but I just don't understand this from you : "Are our choices 'random, if not what determines them and how we make them.. Of course, some choices are random. Sometimes I choose coffee, other times I choose tea. But in this conversation we are talking choices in relation to belief in God. That choice for me was not random . I chose to follow God and accept His plan for salvation when I was 14. It was my decision, no one was telling me I would be disowned if I didn't. In fact, although my family were devout Christians, no one ever pressured me. One day I just realized that salvation was mine for the taking. But through that plan there were conditions. Believe in the Trinity, believe that through God's plan I was promised everlasting life. In return I needed to live the best life I could according to God's will. As I said previously, I attended the Presbyterian Church for awhile, but soon realized by my own 'Free will' that I did not agree with their teaching of determination. In that moment my brain and my heart re enforced the realization that I still had free will.. So I took my exit. A lot of things in life are pre determined through DNA, for example. skin color..One cannot choose what skin color they may have. But spiritual free will is not a question of genes or DNA. If predetermination was a solid fact we would have no control over our actions. Some of us would be born to be criminals, others to be law abiding citizens. So in that context, we make a choice whether we chose to obey the laws or not. The wise choice would be to follow the law. " It's not my fault" How many times have you heard this feeble excuse for bad behavior ?.. Children and teens often try to fall back on this mantra in order to cover their butt when they've chosen to disobey structured rules " The dog ate my homework " Was that kid pre determined to be a liar ? No, he/she made the decision all on their own. During all those many years since age 14, I have failed. Sometimes, I have failed miserably. I've made poor choices in every day life.But I never lost faith that forgiveness was mine for the asking. That is my explanation of free will. I still have free will. I could chose to become an atheist tomorrow. But I won't, because that is not what I believe in in context to God. Psalm 121: King James Version (KJV) I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help. 2 My help cometh from the Lord, which made heaven and earth. 3 He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber. 4 Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep. 5 The Lord is thy keeper: the Lord is thy shade upon thy right hand. 6 The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night. 7 The Lord shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul. 8 The Lord shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2014 18:38:24 GMT -6
Some very nice scriptures. One of my favorite scriptures is Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him.
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Post by samsara15 on May 10, 2014 19:07:50 GMT -6
I think Free Will involves a lot more than just that one question. I think our actions and decisions are based on many factors, both psychological and physical, some of which are out of our control. It is true that no one is forcing you to make that choice, but a person's decision would be predictable, based on those factors. Philosophers such as John Searle argue that we are no more free than our liver or stomach. I get lost in the complexity of their arguments, and am not solidly on either side, but am wary of endorsing the concept of Free Will in face of so much doubt. Are our choices random? If not, what determines them, and how we make them? You have made some good points according to your way of thinking, but I just don't understand this from you : "Are our choices 'random, if not what determines them and how we make them.. Of course, some choices are random. Sometimes I choose coffee, other times I choose tea. But in this conversation we are talking choices in relation to belief in God. That choice for me was not random . I chose to follow God and accept His plan for salvation when I was 14. It was my decision, no one was telling me I would be disowned if I didn't. In fact, although my family were devout Christians, no one ever pressured me. One day I just realized that salvation was mine for the taking. But through that plan there were conditions. Believe in the Trinity, believe that through God's plan I was promised everlasting life. In return I needed to live the best life I could according to God's will. As I said previously, I attended the Presbyterian Church for awhile, but soon realized by my own 'Free will' that I did not agree with their teaching of determination. In that moment my brain and my heart re enforced the realization that I still had free will.. So I took my exit. A lot of things in life are pre determined through DNA, for example. skin color..One cannot choose what skin color they may have. But spiritual free will is not a question of genes or DNA. During all those many years since age 14, I have failed. Sometimes, I have failed miserably. I've made poor choices in every day life.But I never lost faith that forgiveness was mine for the asking. That is my explanation of free will. I still have free will. I could chose to become an atheist tomorrow. But I won't, because that is not what I believe in in context to God. Psalm 121: King James Version (KJV) I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help. 2 My help cometh from the Lord, which made heaven and earth. 3 He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber. 4 Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep. 5 The Lord is thy keeper: the Lord is thy shade upon thy right hand. 6 The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night. 7 The Lord shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul. 8 The Lord shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore. My choices are not random; in that sense, they are based on the best information I believe I have available to me. That does not, however rule out Free Will. What rules out Free Will, for me, is the information I receive from other sources. But none of that rules out Free Will entirely; the question is still open, although I lean on the side of determinism. The determinism of today, however, is a softer version of determinism than the determinism of John Calvin.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2014 19:25:59 GMT -6
( samsara13: The determinism of today, however, is a softer version of determinism than the determinism of John Calvin. )
See ? That is my point. The issue of determinism has changed. It seems to be a pliable , somewhat transient view.
God's plan for salvation in the form of Free Will never changes. It remains rock steady.
It's the same today as it was the day Jesus died for our sins.
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Post by samsara15 on May 11, 2014 4:35:03 GMT -6
The uncertainty of quantum mechanics creates a randomness about our universe, too. That's one reason I am not sure where I stand on the issue, except that I am uncertain and think conclusive evidence is lacking, for me, at least. I read articles that go both ways. So I kind of fall in the middle - a limited version of Free Will, and limited determinism. Maybe that means we are asking nature the wrong question?
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Post by samsara15 on May 11, 2014 5:04:38 GMT -6
The issue also becomes less important if you don't insist that the Christian God has to be omnipotent and omniscient. IMO, those assumptions may just be based on a misunderstanding of what it means to be infinite. Unbounded might be a better term. To assign a value to knowledge or power in that sense may simply lack meaning, but we humans love to try to measure things that may not really be amenable to measurement.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2014 9:23:51 GMT -6
The issue also becomes less important if you don't insist that the Christian God has to be omnipotent and omniscient. IMO, those assumptions may just be based on a misunderstanding of what it means to be infinite. Unbounded might be a better term. To assign a value to knowledge or power in that sense may simply lack meaning, but we humans love to try to measure things that may not really be amenable to measurement. In between those words, calculations,miscalculations, measurements, is where Faith is lost. Faith is the driving force behind my version of free will.
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Post by samsara15 on May 11, 2014 10:03:28 GMT -6
Faith is not something that I'd hang my hat on. Everyone has faith, but faith in different things. I have faith, too, but regard it as a necessary evil. A working assumption. And most of us also seem to be driven by our emotions, which is not necessarily a bad thing.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2014 11:13:43 GMT -6
Faith is not something that I'd hang my hat on. Everyone has faith, but faith in different things. I have faith, too, but regard it as a necessary evil. A working assumption. And most of us also seem to be driven by our emotions, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Sam of course you can hang your hat on faith and....much more then that. Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. ... from the King James Bible.
That is the Biblical defination of faith, no truer words were ever spoken.
Once that soaked into my noggin, I knew how to pray.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2014 13:19:17 GMT -6
1 Corinthians 2:5 So that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2014 15:01:47 GMT -6
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
You get faith my hearing God's word preached or taught or by reading God's word. That's the only way faith comes.
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Post by samsara15 on May 11, 2014 15:22:55 GMT -6
No thanks, I'm happy with my own beliefs, or lack thereof.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2014 3:37:19 GMT -6
Pope Francis already has done a lot of good for the Catholic Church but I still have a hard time believing he's infallible.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2014 16:24:05 GMT -6
No mortal man is infallible.
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