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Post by rdlb on Apr 27, 2014 7:50:05 GMT -6
I also mean no disrespect at anytime. In consideration of any "novice Christian" one must be careful not to cause a turning away from Christ, on that I think we agree. John 3:16, one of the most quoted verse from scripture, has also in the following verses more information our Lord indicates about acceptance. Shall I disregard the contextual expansion from verse 16 and through to verse 21? Even to a "novice Christian"?
From your many relies and posts I do not see or understand you to be a "novice Christian" and after so many decades, I am not either. In this forum I will show great respect for other belief systems even if they are different from mine.
Since you are not a "novice" would you consider from Romans 3:23 that you would always fall short of the glory (mind, to think) of God? It would seem that "Atheists" would regardless of what Pope Francis says.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 10:10:14 GMT -6
I have a Companion Bible and verse 23 says that is because of Adam's sin that we inherited. That is the reason we needed a redeemer.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 15:50:08 GMT -6
I also mean no disrespect at anytime. In consideration of any "novice Christian" one must be careful not to cause a turning away from Christ, on that I think we agree. John 3:16, one of the most quoted verse from scripture, has also in the following verses more information our Lord indicates about acceptance. Shall I disregard the contextual expansion from verse 16 and through to verse 21? Even to a "novice Christian"? From your many relies and posts I do not see or understand you to be a "novice Christian" and after so many decades, I am not either. In this forum I will show great respect for other belief systems even if they are different from mine. Since you are not a "novice" would you consider from Romans 3:23 that you would always fall short of the glory (mind, to think) of God? It would seem that "Atheists" would regardless of what Pope Francis says. Yes, I do think all we mortals will, at sometime, fall short of the Glory of God. 'Falling short of the Glory of God ' , IMO, is not as important as the recognition of the fact. Once we realize that we have fallen short of the Glory of God, and repent, ask forgiveness and try to compensate, that is when we will receive the forgiveness that Christ has promised his children. If we equaled the Glory of God, we would never have had need of a Savior to give his life's blood for our redemption in the first place. We were born mortal. we live as mortals and we will die a mortal death here on Earth. It's what we do with our lives in the interim that counts. Making mistakes, or sinning, if you prefer that term, is proof that we indeed, are mere mortals. The big 'ta da' is that forgiveness is ours to be had just for the asking. In return for forgiveness we have to make a very real, a very sincere attempt not to repeat the transgression. I do not agree with Pope Francis on the Atheist issue..I am a firm believer in 'free will' The choice is their's to make, believe or not believe. Everyone has free will.
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Post by samsara15 on Apr 27, 2014 16:14:24 GMT -6
Do we? I'm not sure. And I have heard many arguments, both ways, and am still undecided. Nor have the majority of philosophers or scientists been persuaded by any evidence that currently exists. So I'd say it's still an open question. A matter of opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 16:35:46 GMT -6
Do we? I'm not sure. And I have heard many arguments, both ways, and am still undecided. Nor have the majority of philosophers or scientists been persuaded by any evidence that currently exists. So I'd say it's still an open question. A matter of opinion. Not sure of what ? Free will ? No matter what philosophers or scientists say we still have free will. No one can take that from us. We are talking two entirely things here.. Is not opinion a matter of choice ? I have one opinion, you have another... hence...free will to choose which you believe.
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Post by samsara15 on Apr 27, 2014 19:25:01 GMT -6
But is our opinion something we chose, or is it pre-determined, by our chemistry, our genes, or what we are? skylar, that is not an answer. I was raised to be a Presbyterian. Pre-determination was part of Presbyterianism. I am now a fallen away Presbyterian, but pre-determinationism is a belief hard to erase. You don't banish it that easily.
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Post by samsara15 on Apr 27, 2014 19:30:37 GMT -6
Quantum mechanics might seem to rule out pre-destination, but some are not so sure, Neither am I. Nor am I sure about much of anything, except that this is a very difficult reality to evaluate. What I hear, from all sides, is the most intelligent and wisest of us human beings, IMO, struggling just as hard as I do to understand it all, and to live good, caring lives.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 21:46:24 GMT -6
But is our opinion something we chose, or is it pre-determined, by our chemistry, our genes, or what we are? skylar, that is not an answer. I was raised to be a Presbyterian. Pre-determination was part of Presbyterianism. I am now a fallen away Presbyterian, but pre-determinationism is a belief hard to erase. You don't banish it that easily. Opinions are transient things. They can change, they can be altered over time or they can change on a dime. Many factors establish or change opinions. Since we have the ability to change our opinions , I can't believe they are genetic. When you refer to 'genes' you are going in an entirely different direction from opinion. If genes determined or had any bearing on opinion, it would seem to follow that other family members with similar DNA would all share the same opinion. I've seen too many dysfunctional, estranged families to believe that geneshave anything to do with opinion. Unless you ( by 'you', I am speaking collectively ) have been brainwashed by some cult, or have a learning disability or some other mental disorder, we, as human beings have the right to free will.. free thinking. I was raised Southern Baptist. It was only in my late twenties when I began to question some of their practices.. I decided, by free will that I did not agree with some of their dogma. I had no trouble seeking other denominations. I also attended the Presbyterian Church for a while, but couldn't accept the premise of pre determination. If we are born with a working brain, and that brain remains in working order, we have free will, free thinking. Ever hear the Barbara Streisand song " My Heart Belongs To Me ' ? I'm referring to the title,not necessarily the lyrics. That particular title summed it all up for me and put all things in context. Even those held in prison camps, those whose lives were taken in such horrific conditions such as the Holocaust, still had the right to their thoughts. That is one right that can never be taken away. People can steal your property, they can threaten your life, they can do horrible, unthinkable things to your body,but one thing is certain.. unless you have been chemically altered, no one can control your thoughts. That's why free will is such a great and wonderful thing. It's one of the greatest of God's gifts.
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Post by rdlb on May 4, 2014 9:02:42 GMT -6
I have a Companion Bible and verse 23 says that is because of Adam's sin that we inherited. That is the reason we needed a redeemer. In all of the Greek texts and the subsequent translations I find no indication of any term, "because of Adam's sin" within Romans 3:23.
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Post by samsara15 on May 4, 2014 18:15:35 GMT -6
Do we? I'm not sure. And I have heard many arguments, both ways, and am still undecided. Nor have the majority of philosophers or scientists been persuaded by any evidence that currently exists. So I'd say it's still an open question. A matter of opinion. Not sure of what ? Free will ? No matter what philosophers or scientists say we still have free will. No one can take that from us. We are talking two entirely things here.. Is not opinion a matter of choice ? I have one opinion, you have another... hence...free will to choose which you believe. I'm not even sure what "Free Will' is. The more I hear and read about it, the less I know. Just like I am not sure what 'consciousness' is. The more I hear a term bounced around, the fuzzier its meaning seems to become, at least, IMO. Are we all even talking about the same thing? Does Free Will, for example, mean that our choices are random? If our choices are based on our opinions, our preferences, and our knowledge, then are they really free? There seem to be multiple definitions of what exactly Free Will is, as well.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2014 21:57:08 GMT -6
My interpretation of 'free will' is that it is your choice and it cannot be taken away from you. Free will is very simple.. for instance God gives us the ability to 'freely' choose to follow, believe, in his plan for salvation or not. You are under no duress to believe as Christians do in God's plan. I am under no duress to believe and put all my faith in God.. I was given a choice. I chose to believe.
Why do some people choose to make 'free will' so complicated ? Believe in God or not..
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 7:06:04 GMT -6
I think what you believe is not really a choice for most people, I know it's not for me. It's me, it's who I am. I could stop believing in God about as easy as I could grow wings and fly......again it's who I am.
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Post by samsara15 on May 6, 2014 9:06:03 GMT -6
and I would be a doubter, in the circumstances we find ourselves in, because doubting is how I approach life.
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 13:38:14 GMT -6
I think what you believe is not really a choice for most people, I know it's not for me. It's me, it's who I am. I could stop believing in God about as easy as I could grow wings and fly......again it's who I am. I get what you are saying.. sort of. But at birth, our brains are blank slates. So that being said, you, at some point in your life, had to decide, by free will, whether you wanted to follow Christ, become a Christian or not. Most people ( probably) who were born into a Christian home would follow along those lines. However, I've known people who were born into devoutly Christian homes who later denounced religion and became an avowed atheist or agnostic. I was born into a devout Southern Baptist family. Daddy and Granddad were deacons, my Mother was on the board of the local Baptist Children's Services. For me, it was Church every Sunday, Church summer camp, Sunbeams and G.A's But it was all purely rote. I knew that was what was expected of me. I could have followed that path for the rest of my life never really GETTING IT. But there came a time when I was around 14, that one Sunday, I really did get it. It was as if a light had gone off in my head. I suddenly understood what salvation meant to me. Me as a person, not the me defined as a the daughter of a prominent church family. At that point, I developed a personal relationship with God, not just someone who was riding along on her family's coat tails. At that very moment I had a choice.. believe that Jesus was my Savior, loved me, personally and understood my every thought. That's when it all made sense. I could have ignored that feeling and continued the charade of being a Christian, because that's what my family was, so why not me? But that's not the way it works. There comes a time when you accept God's plan for salvation or ignore it. So again, at some point you had to make a choice, by free will. A Christian may be who and what you are now and perhaps for a very long time, but I'll be willing to bet there was a defining moment in your life when you really got it,
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2014 13:57:30 GMT -6
and I would be a doubter, in the circumstances we find ourselves in, because doubting is how I approach life. Being a doubter is a good thing in certain circumstances. I have many doubts about many subjects. But God has taken away my doubts about his plan for salvation, and it's a relief not to be in a situation of constant doubt I have no doubt that God sent his only Son that who so ever believeth in Him, shall NOT perish, but have ever lasting life. I take my doubts to God and He gives me reassurance. Do you ever get any relief from your spiritual doubts ? That must take a toll and be extremely exhausting. Are there ever periods when you are doubt free ?
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