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Post by samsara15 on May 6, 2014 15:38:57 GMT -6
No, it's not exhausting. I have times when an idea takes hold of me, but doubts always return. I have been persuaded by one idea or another over and over again, in my life, but those ideas never stick for long. Doubts return.
I am a very weak debater, so that makes it even easier for me to be temporarily persuaded.
I'm just as resistant to 'foreign' ideas as anyone else, so I tend to return over and over again to the ideas that seem most believable and most plausible to me, even when swayed to differing views for a short time.
People have such contrasting views that comparing them, weighing them, and evaluating them limits their influence on me, because they cancel each other out, and I tend to return to my original POVs, sometime a bit modified by the opinions I have evaluated, usually not.
Being 72, and having always had a strong interest in discussing metaphysics, I have heard a lot of POVs over many years, which also limits their ability to sway me.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2014 20:37:16 GMT -6
Back to the original topic.
"Pope Francis says atheists can go to Heaven"... OK here is my obvious question.
Why would Atheists want to go to Heaven ? Haven't they spent a lifetime averting any and all things related to God, Heaven, Hell etc.
So to say that they can go to Heaven is a puzzle at best.. Don't they know there will be a lot of people there who are referred to as 'Believers' ? The very people and belief system they have avoided at all costs here on Earth ? Is this the ultimate irony or what ?
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2014 3:24:21 GMT -6
Back to the original topic. "Pope Francis says atheists can go to Heaven"... OK here is my obvious question. Why would Atheists want to go to Heaven ? Haven't they spent a lifetime averting any and all things related to God, Heaven, Hell etc. So to say that they can go to Heaven is a puzzle at best.. Don't they know there will be a lot of people there who are referred to as 'Believers' ? The very people and belief system they have avoided at all costs here on Earth ? Is this the ultimate irony or what ? That's a good question. Why would atheists want to go to Heaven? Seeing they have rejected God, Heaven, Hell. For a Atheist to go to heaven it would be like placing them there against their will.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2014 5:40:37 GMT -6
Back to the original topic. "Pope Francis says atheists can go to Heaven"... OK here is my obvious question. Why would Atheists want to go to Heaven ? Haven't they spent a lifetime averting any and all things related to God, Heaven, Hell etc. So to say that they can go to Heaven is a puzzle at best.. Don't they know there will be a lot of people there who are referred to as 'Believers' ? The very people and belief system they have avoided at all costs here on Earth ? Is this the ultimate irony or what ? That's a good question. Why would atheists want to go to Heaven? Seeing they have rejected God, Heaven, Hell. For a Atheist to go to heaven it would be like placing them there against their will. Yes, and they would be surrounded by all those obviously 'mentally challenged people' who have served that 'Enigma' ( in an atheist's perception ) called God ? Surely there was more to Pope Francis' thoughts and statement than I absorbed. Is there some sort of exchange program that I am unaware of? Atheists going to Heaven. So does it follow that true, sincere, followers of God will be sent to Hell ? Since neither place is real to an atheist, does it matter to them what the Pope says ? What's the upside for them ?
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2014 6:06:47 GMT -6
Maybe God is bigger than we thought he was. It would take a big God to allow the atheist folks into heaven. Not really -- if little babies that don't know much and did nothing wrong die, surely they go to heaven. Innocent babies are not avowed atheists. They have not reached a point in time where they can rationally accept or deny. AND, ( no disrespect here sydney ) it doesn't hinge on what sydney, you or I believe. It's in God's word. If you believe the teachings of the bible, the very basic idea of 'Ye must be born again'.. Or.. " For God so loved the World that He gave his only begotten Son, that who shall ever believeth in Him, shall NOT perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16 So that is the polar opposite of an atheist's beliefs.. who to believe here.. Pope Francis or God's plan for salvation ? Maybe the Pope received some mysterious message from God telling him to disregard all previous credos.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2014 6:23:36 GMT -6
Ah Ha ! I knew there must have been more to the Pope's statement than first thought on face value. ( Pope Francis ) "However, he did emphasize there was a 'CATCH' ...Those people must still do good. In fact, it is in doing good that they are LED to the One who is the Source of all that is good. In essence he simply restated the hope of the Church that ALL come to know God, through His Son Jesus Christ." So that better sums it up. There is still a caveat: " That ALL come to know God, through His Son, Jesus Christ." Good deeds alone just don't get it. nothing new under the sun there
That's why headlines are often misleading. They are only teasers and leave out the meat of the subject..
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Post by samsara15 on May 9, 2014 9:37:50 GMT -6
I have no desire to go to a Christian heaven. I'm not sure what I would do with eternity anyhow. Maybe I'm not enlightened enough for that, at least, not yet.
If there is a God, IMO, all things emanate from God, so I am already part of God, as is everyone and everything else, so when I die, I will return to God, or my molecules will. All matter may have some rudimentary life. Not terribly different from some of the ideas found in the Kaballah, nor the Rig Vedas, both of which contain some very good ideas,IMO. Of oourse, as in all human things, there is some chaff mixed in with the wheat, in all belief systems, including my own, but it is hard to determine which is which.
There are other Christian sects which believe everyone will eventually be saved. I think that is a generous spirited belief.
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Post by tindalus on May 9, 2014 13:40:21 GMT -6
I will agree with one point, no athiest would go to heaven, since it doesn't exist. least not the way that christians believe.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2014 15:31:56 GMT -6
I will agree with one point, no athiest would go to heaven, since it doesn't exist. least not the way that christians believe. Well, you see, that is your first mistake. Thinking, saying that you have the ultimate answers and believers do not. Yes, you have free will to believe as you chose, but never try to convince yourself that believers don't have that same free will. You have no proof that heaven does not exist. I have faith that it does. So an impasse would be the only logical point of convergence you and I could rationally come to. I always try to give others ,who believe differently from me, the respect they are due. But I've noticed on other boards that it is always the atheists who go the extra mile to belittle, label and tell Christians that they are wrong on all points. You can say "there is no heaven, at least not the way Christians believe" all day long. You have a right to your opinion, but at least have the courtesy to understand that I have the right to believe as I do also. Samsara15, for example, does not agree with me on matters of belief or faith, but I will give him credit for respect. He states his opinion in a way that does not alienate nor demean believers.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2014 15:34:36 GMT -6
I have no desire to go to a Christian heaven. I'm not sure what I would do with eternity anyhow. Maybe I'm not enlightened enough for that, at least, not yet. If there is a God, IMO, all things emanate from God, so I am already part of God, as is everyone and everything else, so when I die, I will return to God, or my molecules will. All matter may have some rudimentary life. Not terribly different from some of the ideas found in the Kaballah, nor the Rig Vedas, both of which contain some very good ideas,IMO. Of oourse, as in all human things, there is some chaff mixed in with the wheat, in all belief systems, including my own, but it is hard to determine which is which. There are other Christian sects which believe everyone will eventually be saved. I think that is a generous spirited belief. Which 'Christian' sect would that be ? You may be right that all things come from God. In fact, I'm sure you are right, however you are speaking in terms of matter, molecules that make up all things living or Inanimate objects. But you have overlooked the spiritual part.. the soul. The spiritual soul . The soul, the spirit lives on, long after physical matter dies .
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Post by samsara15 on May 9, 2014 17:34:44 GMT -6
Universalists/Unitarians, for one. Not many large group, perhaps, but are you counting numbers, or opinions?
I do not believe in a soul. I believe the body and the soul are one and the same, and I am what is called a monist. I believe that the human soul is a myth created by our long-standing misunderstanding of how human consciousness arises, which dates from ancient times, now being corrected by a better understanding of how living organisms react to their environment. I believe the essence of all life lies in matter. Matter, I believe, is the essence of God.
I may be wrong. Not the first time, but it is what I believe, until someone gives me reason to change those beliefs.
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Post by samsara15 on May 9, 2014 17:40:10 GMT -6
Let me be more precise. I believe the 'soul' is the self-image we create of ourselves. A 'life-story'. No more real, or precise, than the idea of 'ancient Greece', or the 'Pittsburgh Pirates'.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2014 17:40:33 GMT -6
Universalists/Unitarians, for one. Not many large group, perhaps, but are you counting numbers, or opinions? I do not believe in a soul. I believe the body and the soul are one and the same, and I am what is called a monist. I believe that the human soul is a myth created by our long-standing misunderstanding of how human consciousness arises, which dates from ancient times, now being corrected by a better understanding of how living organisms react to their environment. I believe the essence of all life lies in matter. Matter, I believe, is the essence of God. I may be wrong. Not the first time, but it is what I believe, until someone gives me reason to changer those beliefs. I'm counting neither numbers or opinions, just wondered which Christian demoninations you were referring to.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2014 18:07:10 GMT -6
Universalists/Unitarians, for one. Not many large group, perhaps, but are you counting numbers, or opinions? I do not believe in a soul. I believe the body and the soul are one and the same, and I am what is called a monist. I believe that the human soul is a myth created by our long-standing misunderstanding of how human consciousness arises, which dates from ancient times, now being corrected by a better understanding of how living organisms react to their environment. I believe the essence of all life lies in matter. Matter, I believe, is the essence of God. I may be wrong. Not the first time, but it is what I believe, until someone gives me reason to changer those beliefs. A person consist of body, soul and spirit. The body is our natural body, the soul is the intellectual qualities of the person. The Spirit is the eternal part of man that will live forever.
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Post by tindalus on May 9, 2014 18:12:45 GMT -6
I have no desire to go to a Christian heaven. I'm not sure what I would do with eternity anyhow. Maybe I'm not enlightened enough for that, at least, not yet. If there is a God, IMO, all things emanate from God, so I am already part of God, as is everyone and everything else, so when I die, I will return to God, or my molecules will. All matter may have some rudimentary life. Not terribly different from some of the ideas found in the Kaballah, nor the Rig Vedas, both of which contain some very good ideas,IMO. Of oourse, as in all human things, there is some chaff mixed in with the wheat, in all belief systems, including my own, but it is hard to determine which is which. There are other Christian sects which believe everyone will eventually be saved. I think that is a generous spirited belief. Which 'Christian' sect would that be ? You may be right that all things come from God. In fact, I'm sure you are right, however you are speaking in terms of matter, molecules that make up all things living or Inanimate objects. But you have overlooked the spiritual part.. the soul. The spiritual soul . The soul, the spirit lives on, long after physical matter dies . Actually, I know there is no heaven. So you can have all the faith you want,but I know it doesn't exist as Christians view heaven.
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