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Post by rdlb on Nov 16, 2014 9:31:26 GMT -6
As a pantheist, who views the universe as sort of the body of God, and also a skeptic, with no rigidly fixed beliefs, I view myself as compatible with atheists, but also compatible with theism, a little bit of everything. I have been more or less run off of atheist sites for not being a strident enough non-believer to suit them. Bitterly attacked for even suggesting or giving even the slightest support to the idea that some sort of God might exist. Atheism is a religion, I have concluded from their performance, and non-believers are viciously attacked, so they might as well have a church themselves, since they try to enforce such strict orthodoxy. Do you think that it is the nature of man to mainly keep his orthodoxy regardless of other's beliefs? Perhaps feeling safe from a change in belief? As a former Atheist, I was secure in the empirical knowledge of "facts" contrived to support the non-existence of any "God". Then at my final denial of a "God," this God revealed Himself to me. Four decades later? I am dumfounded at the Atheist's tones towards those of us who have had an epiphanic relationship with a reality. I have come to a place however, of being less judgmental of their condition, and willing to see a "Christlike" side of their personalities and thereby being in support of that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 4:45:23 GMT -6
I couldn't tell you how many churches I've been in but the church I attend now is the only church I feel at home in. My mother was instrumental in getting the church started.
Churches have personalities....clicks might be another word for it.
I view 'cliques' as exclusive. All churches should be inclusive. To be a part of a 'clique' in church is not fulfilling God's will to minister to, or make welcome, ALL the people. I think cliques are found in most churches and most groups. For the most part I think it's unintentional.
God will reveal himself to most people that seek him. Seldom does he knock people to the ground to get their attention.
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Post by samsara15 on Nov 17, 2014 6:59:51 GMT -6
As a pantheist, who views the universe as sort of the body of God, and also a skeptic, with no rigidly fixed beliefs, I view myself as compatible with atheists, but also compatible with theism, a little bit of everything. I have been more or less run off of atheist sites for not being a strident enough non-believer to suit them. Bitterly attacked for even suggesting or giving even the slightest support to the idea that some sort of God might exist. Atheism is a religion, I have concluded from their performance, and non-believers are viciously attacked, so they might as well have a church themselves, since they try to enforce such strict orthodoxy. Do you think that it is the nature of man to mainly keep his orthodoxy regardless of other's beliefs? Perhaps feeling safe from a change in belief? As a former Atheist, I was secure in the empirical knowledge of "facts" contrived to support the non-existence of any "God". Then at my final denial of a "God," this God revealed Himself to me. Four decades later? I am dumfounded at the Atheist's tones towards those of us who have had an epiphanic relationship with a reality. I have come to a place however, of being less judgmental of their condition, and willing to see a "Christlike" side of their personalities and thereby being in support of that. I think most people fall into orthodoxy. There is even sort of an orthodoxy among pantheists; and also among panentheists, which are fairly rare. I usually find myself outside the prevailing views, and get treated like an outsider. I have an epiphany of my own, which I seldom share, since it receives such a cold reception, and is also hard to share. In the end, however, we are all individuals, and alone in our beliefs, whether or not we admit it, IMO. I think people grasp at orthodoxy out of fear of being perceived as an outsider.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 8:58:01 GMT -6
I have visited churches that had 'cliques' that would rival any high school 'pretty people clubs'. We once visited a rather large church, walked in and found the congregation rather sparse for such a large church. We chose our seats on a pew that was totally unoccupied only to have a lady tell us that those seats were where so and so and so always sat and they would be there soon, they were running late that day, but we would have to move, ! My Mother and I just looked at each other, shocked to say the least, got up and went to another church. My Mom hurried me out before I loosened a tirade of very unladylike words right there in the sanctuary ( My Mom knew me well . I also attended an Easter Sunrise service at a church closer to home than my regular church because I was running late that day. I arrived, took my seat, sat through the entire service, got up to leave without one single person even saying 'Hello, nice to have you here' or anything of the kind. I spoke to several people and received a nod, if that. People do not realize the impact that sort of behavior reflects on their church. On the other hand, I attended a church I'd never been to before and practically everyone in the congregation sought me out when the service was over, telling me how nice it was to have me there and hoped I would consider returning. I even received several invitations to after church luncheons from strangers I'd never laid my eyes on before. It's amazing the difference between the social interactions from one church to another. I once attended a large church here. At that time it was the largest church in the city I think. It was my first time there, The preacher apparently recognized me. I was involved in a lot of things here and quite out spoken about my beliefs. The pastor tuned to me and said you're welcome, just not here....you would be much more welcome somewhere else. I refused to get up and leave and in a few minutes the service began as normal. I met this pastor a number of times in the following years and he never did apologize or mention the incident that night but his attitude changed, He was always nice to me and I gained a lot of respect for him.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 19:47:43 GMT -6
Why would a so called 'man of God ' behave in such a manner ? Kudos to you, I'd have a hard time turning the other cheek and respect would be out of the question for me. Yeah, I know, but people own their actions and he has not upheld his position. An apology would be the right thing for him to do. Just because he was the minister, did he take a poll, ask people to fill out a questionaire or something, otherwise how could he have spoken for the members ?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 20:44:46 GMT -6
Well the man has gone on to his reward, what ever that might be. If he was wrong he can take it up with God. He's been dead a number of years now. One day I decided to google him....Nothing. He's a nothing and I'm a nobody, we're even now. Funny how time has a way of evening things out. The man did a lot of good things but I think he was somewhat ruthless in the way he went about it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2014 8:57:47 GMT -6
Well the man has gone on to his reward, what ever that might be. If he was wrong he can take it up with God. He's been dead a number of years now. One day I decided to google him....Nothing. He's a nothing and I'm a nobody, we're even now. Funny how time has a way of evening things out. The man did a lot of good things but I think he was somewhat ruthless in the way he went about it. Just another example of what some others see in organized religion. The 'good' he did was cancelled out by his treatment of you. When a man is a minister, he is supposed to be the role model. I feel he fell short in his role. Only ego prevents people from apologizing when they are wrong. And BTW, nobody is a 'nothing' and no one is a 'no body' We are all 'somebody', and what we do with that status is up to us. God created each and everyone in His image, with love, so that alone cancels out the 'nobody' theory.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2014 11:21:30 GMT -6
That was my attempt at humor. My opinion only, but that man was the most sanctimonious, self righteous person I've ever met.
Back in the Spring a couple of friends wanted me to go with them to put flowers on their mother's graves. I also went by another cemetery to put flowers on a family members grave. They were all in different cemeteries. All three cemeteries were large and all were beautiful but it gave me a sense of how temporal life is. I have already purchased my grave in another cemetery. In it all the grave stones are laid flat. Everyone is equal, you can't tell who was rich or poor. Hmmmm, I digress. Oh well.
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Post by rdlb on Nov 20, 2014 20:59:04 GMT -6
Do you think that it is the nature of man to mainly keep his orthodoxy regardless of other's beliefs? Perhaps feeling safe from a change in belief? As a former Atheist, I was secure in the empirical knowledge of "facts" contrived to support the non-existence of any "God". Then at my final denial of a "God," this God revealed Himself to me. Four decades later? I am dumfounded at the Atheist's tones towards those of us who have had an epiphanic relationship with a reality. I have come to a place however, of being less judgmental of their condition, and willing to see a "Christlike" side of their personalities and thereby being in support of that. I think most people fall into orthodoxy. There is even sort of an orthodoxy among pantheists; and also among panentheists, which are fairly rare. I usually find myself outside the prevailing views, and get treated like an outsider. I have an epiphany of my own, which I seldom share, since it receives such a cold reception, and is also hard to share. In the end, however, we are all individuals, and alone in our beliefs, whether or not we admit it, IMO. I think people grasp at orthodoxy out of fear of being perceived as an outsider. I would be interested in your epiphany as I have heard many different ones and read many different ones as well. Everyone is entitled to have their own experience. As a minister yours would be highly held in confidentiality. If you do not want to that is quite OK with me as well. PM me if you like.
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Post by samsara15 on Nov 21, 2014 5:46:36 GMT -6
Maybe ephiphany is too strong a word, since mine is not a Christian experience. However, my experiences fit the Wiki definition. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphany_%28feeling%29I have always had such experiences, even as a teenage, on a starry night, but mainly when observing or visiting unique natural sites and historical places. Like Skara Brae, the first time I saw a rocky coastline, Monument Valley, and the pyramids. I grew up on the East coast, in NC, and never even saw a rocky coast until I was 38. But such feelings just wash over me sometimes, when realizing that all things that exist are equally ancient; that the particles that compose our bodies are ghostly, almost immmaterial, immortal things, almost alive on their own. That no one really knows what matter or energy is, that all we can observe about it falls into mystery that might forever defy our understanding. That most simple explanations, or even convoluted explanations, about reality are a gross simplifications of a universe complex beyond all our understanding. How much we don't know, and may never know.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 8:27:52 GMT -6
I have had an epiphany which I have stated many times. You and most people have choices about your spiritual lives, I do not. Once God wakes you up there's no going back.
I hope your wife is doing better.
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Post by samsara15 on Nov 21, 2014 9:19:24 GMT -6
I have no choice either. None of us do. There is no choice about what we believe, and experience. We can try to deny it, or try to make ourselves believe what we think is false, or make some pretense of believing what we do not, but we cannot change what we believe. At least, here in this nation, we are somewhat free to express what we believe. In many parts of the world, such as Saudi Arabia, for example, doing so would result in our death or persecution.
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Post by samsara15 on Nov 21, 2014 20:56:40 GMT -6
I'm a tree hugger, sydney. Nature awes me, in all of its aspects.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2014 3:40:33 GMT -6
Native American Prayer
Oh, Great Spirit Whose voice I hear in the winds, And whose breath gives life to all the world, hear me, I am small and weak, I need your strength and wisdom. Let me walk in beauty and make my eyes ever behold the red and purple sunset. Make my hands respect the things you have made and my ears sharp to hear your voice. Make me wise so that I may understand the things you have taught my people. Let me learn the lessons you have hidden in every leaf and rock. I seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy - myself. Make me always ready to come to you with clean hands and straight eyes. So when life fades, as the fading sunset, my Spirit may come to you without shame.
Native Americans called the earth Mother Earth, she was to be respected and taken care of. Look at what we are doing to her today.
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