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Post by carpathianpeasant on Nov 8, 2015 9:55:41 GMT -6
When Jesus was born it was a virgin birth. Mary did have other children. The Bible does say that He(Jesus) had brothers and sisters, they were not virgin births, they made it into the world the same way every one else has. Sydney, that's a matter of interpretation.
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Post by carpathianpeasant on Nov 8, 2015 10:04:12 GMT -6
Mary wasn't a virgin when Jesus was born. It was a story made up to make Jesus into something that wasn't a man. The reality is that Jesus was no different then you or I. More aware of life than most, but just a man. Guess what.... I don't exclude other possible instances of "the Word made flesh." And, I don't mean just on other worlds out in space but also during pre-historic times on our own earth. After all, God dealt directly with Adam and Eve.
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Post by tindalus on Nov 8, 2015 10:15:40 GMT -6
Adam and Eve, another story that wa more analogy and not factual. The problem with all of these stories is that they were all steep in mythology, but that's all they were. A highly intelligent society trying to explain something they didn't understand. That wa how many many gods were created finally culminating in the "god" of abraham.
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Post by rdlb on Nov 8, 2015 13:48:18 GMT -6
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Post by lowell on Nov 8, 2015 17:47:12 GMT -6
If you really really need to believe that Mary never had intercourse with Joseph, I won't stand in your way. It would be nearly inconceivable though. That belief would take a mountain of faith. Not necessarily. 1. There are other instances where a relationship is strictly a matter of law, adoption being an often used one. 2. Close to 50% of the adult population is classed as some form of "single" (i.e., widowed, divorced or never married). Granted many may have a "partner," but a goodly percentage are not busily into some form of weird sex. (There's more to life than sexual activity.) Even among the married, some couples are separated for long periods of time. 3. The matter of Jesus, Mary and Joseph is swimmingly with the miraculous and God directed. There are a lot of unhealthy ideas in Christianity, and the Mary Joseph Jesus allegations are a source of more than a few of them.
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Post by carpathianpeasant on Nov 8, 2015 21:38:45 GMT -6
Not necessarily. 1. There are other instances where a relationship is strictly a matter of law, adoption being an often used one. 2. Close to 50% of the adult population is classed as some form of "single" (i.e., widowed, divorced or never married). Granted many may have a "partner," but a goodly percentage are not busily into some form of weird sex. (There's more to life than sexual activity.) Even among the married, some couples are separated for long periods of time. 3. The matter of Jesus, Mary and Joseph is swimmingly with the miraculous and God directed. There are a lot of unhealthy ideas in Christianity, and the Mary Joseph Jesus allegations are a source of more than a few of them. There may very well be a lot of unhealthy ideas in Christianity, but are they of the essence of Christianity or some infusions? Let's discuss some, especially if they clear up some mis-conceptions for someone. Or, maybe we could start at the foundation ("beginning"). Either there is or there is not a creative power (personal beliefs aside) out there somewhere.
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Post by carpathianpeasant on Nov 9, 2015 6:51:31 GMT -6
Forgot with the above:
Star Trek -- late in the original series -- had an immaculate conception/virgin birth episode, only the "spirit" wasn't "God" and wasn't considered "God." It was just a powerful spirit being. If I recall correctly, it involved the ship's counselor.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2015 7:17:37 GMT -6
C.P. you may come from a Catholic background and that may be why you view Mary as always being a virgin. I as a very young child was Baptist, My mom remarried and we moved here and my stepdad sent us to Catholic school. Now I belong to a non-denominational church.
After Jesus' birth Mary and Joseph were like any other couple in the bedroom, and I have no problem with that.
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Post by carpathianpeasant on Nov 9, 2015 9:50:01 GMT -6
C.P. you may come from a Catholic background and that may be why you view Mary as always being a virgin. I as a very young child was Baptist, My mom remarried and we moved here and my stepdad sent us to Catholic school. Now I belong to a non-denominational church. After Jesus' birth Mary and Joseph were like any other couple in the bedroom, and I have no problem with that. Sydney, do you understand what I'm saying when I say it's a matter of interpretation? Go to your facebook news feed and scroll down to the "Share" I posted just a few hours ago that shows British (in English) statements and what they mean to the British and what we Americans think they mean. That's interpretation.Neither you nor I nor anyone else knows what Mary and Joseph did in their bedroom.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2015 10:01:50 GMT -6
No, but I have a good idea.
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Post by carpathianpeasant on Nov 9, 2015 11:51:29 GMT -6
No, but I have a good idea. You have a assumption based on your wishes and expectations, someone else's interpretation of someone else's translations, maybe some modern ideas and commonly held thought (those are hard to escape), and what you understand of those plus whatever reason enters the picture. Take apart the story a little for some insight and different ideas may surface. For example, when did Mary and Joseph have these other children -- in Egypt or after their return? POSTSCRIPT: A more biblical point: on the cross Jesus committed the care of Mary to St. John. Now, why would that be necessary if she had other children?
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Post by carpathianpeasant on Nov 9, 2015 13:53:56 GMT -6
Forgot with the above: Star Trek -- late in the original series -- had an immaculate conception/virgin birth episode, only the "spirit" wasn't "God" and wasn't considered "God." It was just a powerful spirit being. If I recall correctly, it involved the ship's counselor. Forgot: That Star Trek episode did not delve into the Immaculate Conception per se as the Immaculate Conception doesn't mean Mary getting pregnant with Jesus -- that's the Virgin Birth business. It's mentioned as the two are sometimes confused. Immaculate Conception is a concept concluded about Mary because she was the mother of Jesus.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2015 14:34:21 GMT -6
No, but I have a good idea. You have a assumption based on your wishes and expectations, someone else's interpretation of someone else's translations, maybe some modern ideas and commonly held thought (those are hard to escape), and what you understand of those plus whatever reason enters the picture. Take apart the story a little for some insight and different ideas may surface. For example, when did Mary and Joseph have these other children -- in Egypt or after their return? POSTSCRIPT: A more biblical point: on the cross Jesus committed the care of Mary to St. John. Now, why would that be necessary if she had other children? Yes, I recall that from memory, what Jesus said to John and Mary and the answer is....I don't know. An odd statement when you think about it. May be rdlb can shed some light on it.
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Post by lowell on Nov 9, 2015 19:01:09 GMT -6
The important things about any religious teacher are not the details about the teacher but the details about the teaching. The person is insignificant while the teaching is supreme. It doesn't matter who the father of Jesus was or the circumstances of his birth. It doesn't matter if he was not Jewish or not Germanic, or not Irish, or not Japanese. If his laws are valuable, then his followers should follow his laws. It matters even less whether his mother was saintly or even good. People who have wicked mothers and fathers can still become wise and compassionate and merciful. It is possible for them to save their evil parents even if they have already fallen into hell. It is possible for them to save their enemies too.
Jesus said "If you love me, keep my commandments. (obey my commandments)" One of those commandments was to love your enemy. "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?" Matthew 5:45 "But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked." Luke 6:35
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Post by carpathianpeasant on Nov 9, 2015 21:31:52 GMT -6
The important things about any religious teacher are not the details about the teacher but the details about the teaching. The person is insignificant while the teaching is supreme. It doesn't matter who the father of Jesus was or the circumstances of his birth. It doesn't matter if he was not Jewish or not Germanic, or not Irish, or not Japanese. If his laws are valuable, then his followers should follow his laws. It matters even less whether his mother was saintly or even good. People who have wicked mothers and fathers can still become wise and compassionate and merciful. It is possible for them to save their evil parents even if they have already fallen into hell. It is possible for them to save their enemies too. Jesus said "If you love me, keep my commandments. (obey my commandments)" One of those commandments was to love your enemy. "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?" Matthew 5:45 "But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked." Luke 6:35 I agree whole-heartedly that it is the teaching that is paramount. It's also true that the Christian message is too often "overlooked" by those who call themselves Christian. However, a teaching is (at least perhaps) better remembered given a "setting" (verbal if not visual). Personally, I especially love the Christmas story, the epitome of gentleness (sheep, not lions, quiet night, baby, etc.) and hope. It taught me that there were "wise men" of "the east," that authority could be murderously self-centered, and that in an attempt to describe something about which only odd fragments are known there is guess work that may not be accurate. Although there's a common image of Mary as a kind of docile brainless teenager at the time of the annunciation, that's probably 'way off base. In the story of the annunciation it says the angel told her that her "sterile" relative Elizabeth was six months pregnant. Mary got up and went to Elizabeth's home to help and stayed three months, i.e., until John the Baptist was born. One would not expect that out of a fifteen-sixteen year old girl. Many reports say Elizabeth was "up in years." Okay, guess 40. If Elizabeth was a "cousin" (one would assume a close one) and Mary was of the same generation, a twenty year difference in ages (not impossible) would make Mary about 20, maybe even 25 at the time. That's a grown woman with some understanding in her head. And, it junks all the rather helpless sweet-teen halo-ed images. No amount of meditation on any line of the Bible is going to make it read like an informative news report by NBC, and Bible quoting as if stating line "x" explains it irks the daylights out of me....
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