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Post by carpathianpeasant on Sept 28, 2015 10:35:10 GMT -6
This was created partly with rdlb in mind, but I'm interested in any thought on the matter.
It is my understanding that Abraham had a wife, Sarah, who had a servant, Hagar. Sarah, being unable to have children, told Abraham to go have children with Hagar. (...Try to have children with Hagar?)
Hagar had a son they called Ismael. In time, due to divine intervention (or maybe Abraham finally got the hang of things with Hagar), Sarah also had a son, Isaac. Ismael, of course, would then be the eldest, but the "legal" first-born was Isaac.
Now, what I was told was that God somehow told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and when Abraham was very reluctantly about to do this, God intervened again and stopped him, after which Abraham found an animal in the brush to complete the sacrifice. And, what I have just read said that Abraham was supposed to sacrifice Ishmael, and was held back three times.
Given the primitive nature of this stuff, even if Hagar would be considered a second wife, logically the latter would make more "inheritance" sense and save warfare between the two sons about who was the rightful heir to whatever.
Can anyone clarify this a little?
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Post by rdlb on Sept 28, 2015 19:25:05 GMT -6
From what you have posted there seems to be some confusion as to the historical account of Abraham's first and second children. The historical accounts can be found in Genesis Chapters 16, 17, 18:1-19, 21:1-21 and 22:1-18. There is no account given of offering up Ishmael as a sacrifice, as it indeed was Isaac. A ram was caught in a thicket and was provided for the sacrifice instead.
The historical account of the bondwoman Hagar and the freewoman Sarah, has an allegorical account in the NT. Galatians 4:22-31. We read many things about Abraham within the NT writings, his faith and obedience that made him righteous and a friend of God.
If you desire more with another question please feel free to do so.
rdlb
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Post by carpathianpeasant on Sept 28, 2015 19:55:50 GMT -6
Hagar was a servant not a wife in any sense. Ismael was the father of all Arabs. The sacrifice...in those days people all around them sacrificed their children, it was not uncommon. God was testing Abraham to see if he would be obedient even in his most precious possession....Isaac. He past the test. Hagar and Ismael were driven away. This was a very grave thing in Abraham's eyes, Ismael after all was his son and he loved him. I don't know if this answers your question, I'm not totally sure I understand the question. Here still in context is the part you overlooked: "Now, what I was told was that God somehow told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, when Abraham was very reluctantly about to do this, God intervened again and stopped him, after which Abraham found an animal in the brush to complete the sacrifice. And, what I have just read said that Abraham was supposed to sacrifice Ishmael, and was held back three times." That was/is in Wikipedia. I said Hagar was a servant, and I certainly don't know the concepts regarding who might legitimately have sex with who that Sarah and Abraham may have acquired in Ur, but if the people had a notion of "wife" then there likely were limits to it. Even if Hagar was a slave rather than a servant, the lady of the house says, "My dear, I just told my husband to go have sex with you -- see if you can give him the kid he wants -- now please bring my lunch and mop the kitchen floor properly this time or I'll see to it you don't get the new dress you want." --??
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Post by carpathianpeasant on Sept 28, 2015 20:11:24 GMT -6
From what you have posted there seems to be some confusion as to the historical account of Abraham's first and second children. The historical accounts can be found in Genesis Chapters 16, 17, 18:1-19, 21:1-21 and 22:1-18. There is no account given of offering up Ishmael as a sacrifice, as it indeed was Isaac. A ram was caught in a thicket and was provided for the sacrifice instead. The historical account of the bondwoman Hagar and the freewoman Sarah, has an allegorical account in the NT. Galatians 4:22-31. We read many things about Abraham within the NT writings, his faith and obedience that made him righteous and a friend of God. If you desire more with another question please feel free to do so. rdlb Thanks for answering, rdlb. As noted above, what I read -- that Abraham was supposed to sacrifice Ishmael -- was in Wikipedia and at the moment I don't even remember the search term I used. If I figure that out later, I'll post it in here. I'm not a Bible reader and wouldn't begin to try to understand what's there.
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Post by carpathianpeasant on Sept 28, 2015 20:48:18 GMT -6
Here still in context is the part you overlooked: "Now, what I was told was that God somehow told Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, when Abraham was very reluctantly about to do this, God intervened again and stopped him, after which Abraham found an animal in the brush to complete the sacrifice. And, what I have just read said that Abraham was supposed to sacrifice Ishmael, and was held back three times." That was/is in Wikipedia. I said Hagar was a servant, and I certainly don't know the concepts regarding who might legitimately have sex with who that Sarah and Abraham may have acquired in Ur, but if the people had a notion of "wife" then there likely were limits to it. Even if Hagar was a slave rather than a servant, the lady of the house says, "My dear, I just told my husband to go have sex with you -- see if you can give him the kid he wants -- now please bring my lunch and mop the kitchen floor properly this time or I'll see to it you don't get the new dress you want." --?? I have read the Bible for a long time and I have never read where Abraham was suppose to sacrifice Ishmael. Do you have a link? This is not the Wikipedia entry I found before -- can't find it now -- but it does discuss the matter: Ishmael Or Isaac
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Post by rdlb on Sept 29, 2015 17:57:35 GMT -6
From what you have posted there seems to be some confusion as to the historical account of Abraham's first and second children. The historical accounts can be found in Genesis Chapters 16, 17, 18:1-19, 21:1-21 and 22:1-18. There is no account given of offering up Ishmael as a sacrifice, as it indeed was Isaac. A ram was caught in a thicket and was provided for the sacrifice instead. The historical account of the bondwoman Hagar and the freewoman Sarah, has an allegorical account in the NT. Galatians 4:22-31. We read many things about Abraham within the NT writings, his faith and obedience that made him righteous and a friend of God. If you desire more with another question please feel free to do so. rdlb Thanks for answering, rdlb. As noted above, what I read -- that Abraham was supposed to sacrifice Ishmael -- was in Wikipedia and at the moment I don't even remember the search term I used. If I figure that out later, I'll post it in here. I'm not a Bible reader and wouldn't begin to try to understand what's there. The Blue Letter Bible online is free to use and you can read the ones I listed using the NASB version as a easier to read for the history. The link is provided below. www.blueletterbible.org
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Post by rdlb on Sept 29, 2015 18:10:14 GMT -6
Muslims on the other hand feel that Ishmael was the one offered up by Abraham. This fact, they believe, is presumed by the Bible’s declaration that Abraham offered his only son (see verses). It is therefore argued that this could not be Isaac, since Isaac was never an only child seeing that Ishmael was born fourteen years prior to him. (Cf. Genesis 16:16, 21:5).
Thus, Muslims believe that scribes later corrupted the original reading from Ishmael to Isaac.
This idea stems from the Muslim misunderstanding of the phrase, “Only son”, in reference to Isaac, since the title is used to affirm Isaac’s unique status, a status based on the following:
l Isaac was the only promised child of Abraham, a fact which the Quran agrees with (cf. Genesis 17:15-21; S. 11:69-73, 37:112-113, 51:24-30).
Ishmael was never a promised child.
l Isaac was conceived miraculously to Sarah when the latter was old and barren, with the Quran likewise agreeing (cf. Genesis 17:15-17, 18:9-15, 21:1-7; S. 11:69-73, 51:24-30). Ishmael was conceived in the normal process of sexual reproduction.
l God promised that it would be Isaac’s descendants who would inherit the land given to Abraham. (Genesis 13:14-18, 15:18-21, 28:13-14).
Ishmael had no part in the inheritance and promise given to Isaac through Abraham. It is for these reasons that Isaac is called Abraham’s only son since God himself reckoned him as the child of promise and blessings, an honor never bestowed upon Ishmael.
Even more amazing is the fact that the Quran never mentions the name of the sacrificial child; amazing indeed considering how overzealous some Muslims have been in their attempts to prove that Ishmael, not Isaac, was that son:
The ambiguity of the text (above in quotes) has left many Islamic scholars guessing as to whether the child was Isaac or Ishmael.
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Post by rdlb on Oct 2, 2015 17:56:08 GMT -6
I checked out BlueletterBible.org, that's a nice site. It is the easiest to use, check out the tools next to a verse you would select.
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