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Post by rdlb on Aug 3, 2014 8:58:01 GMT -6
Science has never attempted to rule religion. There may be many atheists among scientists, but they will always tell you that science cannot prove or disprove the existence of god. I humbly disagree with the highlighted comment. As I am a member of one of the Scientific online communities, hardly a posted commentary goes by that does not try to disprove the existence of God and thereby ruling over religion within "themselves". Most do however indicate that one cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. This from a Christian perspective. There may be as well many Christians or even other religious belief systems among scientists as well. I have no statistics.
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Post by tindalus on Aug 3, 2014 11:04:14 GMT -6
Then they aren't scientists. One cannot prove or disprove something that can't be observed. One can prove that events that occurred in the bible aren't true thru science and archeology but that's an entirely different subject.
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Post by rdlb on Aug 5, 2014 20:36:13 GMT -6
Then they aren't scientists. One cannot prove or disprove something that can't be observed. One can prove that events that occurred in the bible aren't true thru science and archeology but that's an entirely different subject. Interesting how you define what would be a "scientist". As to the different subject? It would be different. As to observation? It depends on one's perspective. I did not choose my OBE, it was chosen for me. As to what was said to me it that experience, was repeated many months later by someone who did not know me or of my experience. It is still as vivid today as it was four decades ago. Yet, it is my experience along with a few others and proving it is impossible. I have realized "perspective", those that have a "gnosis" of what I have experienced have tasted something similar or of the same.
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Post by tindalus on Aug 7, 2014 6:49:58 GMT -6
Observed refers to objective observation. In other words, everyone should be able to repeat an action and observe the same thing. God can't be observed. There is no repeatable experiment that can be done that produces a consistant and expected observed reaction.
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Post by samsara15 on Aug 7, 2014 15:06:48 GMT -6
I don't think we have either a spirit or a soul. We might have something akin to that idea, in the mind of some sort of God, but I am not sure about that, or what form it might take.
We live in a world of matter and energy. That is all that is detectable. Not that, on the deepest level, we know what matter and energy are, and may never know. Strings, membranes, or something akin to those ideas, are possible, for example. It may be that there is more to matter and energy than we currently are aware of, but that is pure speculation.
If there is a God, and there well might be some sort of one, God expresses itself through the physical world and what we can observe in it. I have ideas myself, on that, but I would characterize those ideas as speculation, not belief.
However, I find that sort of speculation most intriguing.
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Post by samsara15 on Aug 7, 2014 16:10:40 GMT -6
Up until very recently, even a week or two ago, I thought that abstract ideas had some objective reality. Now that faith has been shaken, sydney, and has accordingly changed my tone. What I read on other threads, and on some other, non-web sources, has shaken my faith in that reality of abstract ideas. Without that, my previously held conception of possible God(s), and afterlives, weakens, and therefore must be changed.
I was trained and raised in math and the physical sciences, and their belief in changing their beliefs whenever evidence indicates previous beliefs were invalid is a basic part of my mentality. So my faith can blow in the wind.
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Post by samsara15 on Aug 7, 2014 16:14:29 GMT -6
and my beliefs can change again, if someone presents me with what I regard as strong enough evidence.
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Post by tindalus on Aug 7, 2014 19:20:01 GMT -6
Observed refers to objective observation. In other words, everyone should be able to repeat an action and observe the same thing. God can't be observed. There is no repeatable experiment that can be done that produces a consistant and expected observed reaction. I'll give you a Bible reference to help you understand. Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen Hebrews 11:1. That's why you can't understand spiritual things . We are spirit beings and you rely totally on the physical. We are a spirit we have a soul and we live in a body. Spiritual things are as real as material things. Spiritual forces are stronger than mental. Spiritual forces govern diseases etc. Spiritual forces govern natural laws. That has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Science relies on independent observable evidence. There is nothing about god that can be independently observed. Nor is there any independent support for the existence of God. There is no independent repeatable evidence of life after death. Therefore there is no way that science can prove or disprove the existence of god. Anyone that claims otherwise ignores the rules of science. Having said that, it doesn't mean they have not convince themselves that god doesn't exist. but it also doesn't mean that many scientists aren't ignoring "rational scientific evidence" and actually do believe in god. This isn't about whether god exists or not. Science is not attempting to rule "god" because they can't. Nor can they in honesty try to rule religion. People apparently are a superstitious lot and they will believe based on their "feelings" that some sort of "personal" god exists. Whether god exists or not, is a personal view. But there is no evidence that can be independently observed that confirms that belief.
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Post by tindalus on Aug 8, 2014 7:54:16 GMT -6
Not being flippant, that is in your imagination.
As to gravity, I have no clue what you are talking about. religious beliefs are fine with those that want to believe individually. Unfortunately they are also very destructive usually when driven by social groups.
It's one reason religion should stay out of politics. Individually they can be great people to know. But as a group, they are very destructive with their attitude of non compromise as if that is an asset in their religious beliefs. It isn't. It promotes the kind of dysfunctional country we have today.
So if you mean gravity in that way, I agree.
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Post by samsara15 on Aug 8, 2014 18:19:06 GMT -6
Gravity is out of fashion. Relativity is in. But even relativity has it own problems getting along with Quantum Mechanics. So nobody knows who's on first.
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Post by samsara15 on Aug 9, 2014 6:28:57 GMT -6
If you don't believe in that kind of God and/or sin and the possibility of punishment, then it doesn't have much heaviness. However, I don't think Tindalus was taking it lightly.
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Post by tindalus on Aug 9, 2014 6:43:55 GMT -6
Exactly. what my postings was addressing is the silly idea, in my opinion, that science is trying to rule religion. Science has nothing to do with religion. The religious war against science is of their own making. Science is about understanding the world around us. It is quite incidental that it also refutes much of the dogma that religious people believe.
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Post by tindalus on Aug 9, 2014 8:40:18 GMT -6
I agree, science doesn't rule out god.
And I also strongly agree that religion and politics is a bad mix and we are seeing the results today.
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Post by rdlb on Aug 10, 2014 11:57:15 GMT -6
Observed refers to objective observation. In other words, everyone should be able to repeat an action and observe the same thing. God can't be observed. There is no repeatable experiment that can be done that produces a consistant and expected observed reaction. Since God is invisible He cannot be observed with our five senses. Not everyone will repeat the action of repentance and belief in order to observe how the invisible God does what He does within the individual. We who have repented and believed from the heart (will, affections and desires) have a consistent and expected observed outcome. To some this is irrational behavior, for us, it is life and that more abundant. There is this caveat not all religious, church going individuals have repented and believed. Consequently, these drive away the possibility of non-believers seeing the truth of God living in them.
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Post by tindalus on Aug 11, 2014 13:17:10 GMT -6
It is only more abundant in your mind. People who practice other religions or are atheists, their lives are just as "abundant" as yours.
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