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Post by tindalus on Jul 12, 2014 13:50:01 GMT -6
rdlb and I have both said it's hard to understand God with your mind. God and the things of God are understood with the heart. To look at Christianity with the natural mind it probably appears foolish. Hope you feel better. Here's the problem with your statement. You can't know god in your heart. Your emotions are the easiest way to be fooled Why do you think there are thousands if not tens of thousands of different interpretations of christianity that exist. Then add to that other religions and the many interpretations of those religions. Everyone of them will tell you that they know god because they know it in their heart. Why is one more true than another. They each claim that there view of god is the one and only true one. Especially if one believes in a "fixed" and final truth. Sorry, the only thing you have convinced me is that you aren't any different than any muslim, satanist, christian, or one who believed in Zeus. Not a bit different. It's one of the reasons, that this country rightly shouldn't have any religion forced on the people as christians are trying to do. Every person must follow their own path and not have one forced on them. But I will add, that it's up to you what to believe. It doesn't matter to me because the laws work the same no matter what you believe or don't believe. Doesn't matter if you are a buddhist, mormon, christian, muslim, or atheist. It works exactly the same. What is far more important then what you believe is how you live your life. Do you live a kind, gentle life without judging others? Or do you spread dissension, hate, or violence. And don't look at your intentions, look at the results of your actions. Do you live a life of service. where everything in your life is about serving. Do you judge others......for if you do, you are judging yourself. Unconditional love cannot exist while one is judging others. Unconditional love requires living in a state of love.
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Post by tindalus on Jul 12, 2014 14:10:28 GMT -6
Personal epiphanies and anecdotal stories are just that "personal". What is irrational or rational is a matter of opinion usually based on those personal stories. How we personally respond to other's epiphanies and anecdotes can get on the nerves so to speak. Where do the Atheists go to in times of trouble? The question at the beginning of this thread. My response was based on my personal experience. I was an Atheist, I am now a believer in the One God and the Bible's account of that One God. I have hundreds of personal epiphanies and anecdotal stories of personal experience in regards the question. Some individuals on this board can relate and some individuals do not relate or do not accept them. I will share them as a truth, my truth nothing more and nothing less. I also thing that others have the right to express their "stories" and "experiences". I may not agree and will often times express why. However, I will do my best to allow and give opportunities to "save face" to those individuals of whom I may disagree. I also will choose my disagreements of whether or not to respond. Does anyone here want this board to turn into some bloody arena of conflict? "I wonder"? I am not sure what you are completely saying, but my sense of what you mean is that your belief is based on personal experience and may not be considered rational by some. The fact is, I agree. It is why I know that your path isn't right for me. It isn't completely rational, but it is personal experience. Nor will I ever expect anyone to believe me. They have to experience for themselves what is true to them and grow upon their path where ever that takes them. But there are some issues I will have when someone denies evolution, climate change, age of the earth etc because they deny those based irrational thinking that isn't supported either by experience or rational thinking. Why I relate to Atheists more and why I have a lot of appreciation for them, is they are asking the questions instead of just believing what they have spent years being told to believe. God or the idea of god needs to be challenged because that proves that you have an open mind. A mind that is willing to learn, unless of course one has totally closed their mind to being changed. If one stops challenging their beliefs and their experiences, they will have stopped growing.
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Post by samsara15 on Jul 12, 2014 18:38:31 GMT -6
In my case, I get upset even by negative remarks, or those that hint at negativity. On the other hand, I realize that to have any meaningful discourse with other human beings, you have to be ready to be rejected, and harshly. If everyone is polite, one should suspect that they're not hearing the real thoughts of those other people. At the same time, I believe in treating other people with respect for their feelings, even if they don't do the same for mine. But I am certainly no saint, nor do I intend to be one. It's a slippery slope to walk on.
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Post by samsara15 on Jul 12, 2014 18:48:29 GMT -6
Personal epiphanies and anecdotal stories are just that "personal". What is irrational or rational is a matter of opinion usually based on those personal stories. How we personally respond to other's epiphanies and anecdotes can get on the nerves so to speak. Where do the Atheists go to in times of trouble? The question at the beginning of this thread. My response was based on my personal experience. I was an Atheist, I am now a believer in the One God and the Bible's account of that One God. I have hundreds of personal epiphanies and anecdotal stories of personal experience in regards the question. Some individuals on this board can relate and some individuals do not relate or do not accept them. I will share them as a truth, my truth nothing more and nothing less. I also thing that others have the right to express their "stories" and "experiences". I may not agree and will often times express why. However, I will do my best to allow and give opportunities to "save face" to those individuals of whom I may disagree. I also will choose my disagreements of whether or not to respond. Does anyone here want this board to turn into some bloody arena of conflict? "I wonder"? Conflict between human beings is a result of any honest discourse. Bending to avoid conflict does not solve the problem, unless you think it OK for one group to become subservient to another. Differences have to be discussed and worked out. Sometimes they can't be worked out. In spite of which, we need to make every effort to be civil. In times of trouble, how could I turn to a personal God whose existence I find dubious? I have to reach within myself, and sometimes that is not enough. If it isn't, trying to believe in something I do not believe in does not solve the problem. Sometimes, in such situations, I find a personal form of existientialism may help. Is life futile? I don't think so. I think it has whatever meaning we can find to give to it, but that's a complex question, not easily answered on this board.
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Post by rdlb on Jul 14, 2014 19:25:10 GMT -6
rdlb and I have both said it's hard to understand God with your mind. God and the things of God are understood with the heart. To look at Christianity with the natural mind it probably appears foolish. Hope you feel better. Here's the problem with your statement. You can't know god in your heart. Your emotions are the easiest way to be fooledI unfortunately did not clarify what I mean by the word "heart" and the word "mind". Coupled together they produce a life and one sees the resulting actions. Albeit one can act one way while thinking another way. As to judging, Jesus only promoted one kind of judging "a righteous judgment" and that not according to appearance. In looking at the "heart" one cannot not just observe or look on the outside. Sometimes actions can dictate where one's heart is at. Consistency of actions can and do help in discerning that. Does my heart (will, intentions and desires) conform to what my mind understands. It is not usually a "feeling" as to the meaning of the word heart for me but what my will, intentions and desires are controlled by. I have met far too many individuals who tell me they have God in their heart and their mind tells them that, however their actions do not follow what the mind has said. Consequently their will, intentions and desires (heart) want a different outcome and that is what we see in their actions. I see the mind, heart and the subsequent life as a spiritual concept found in a marital relationship between a male and female. The male (mind) the female (heart) and together they produce a life. This principle of three, can be found in many things on the planet. As to sydney's alignment with my commentary? Two different approaches to the idea of heart. A question of degrees. Spiritual height and breadth. I no longer claim that my view of God is the one and only true one. I have found truth in many diverse religions and a rather mixed bag of truth even from the non-religious. If I judge myself, am then guilty of judging others? It seems to follow does it not? Having lived within the Christian nomenclature I also am aware of a facet of judging others to the point of shunning them and even excommunication. I have experienced both. I prefer dialog.
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Post by tindalus on Jul 14, 2014 20:17:15 GMT -6
I am not as good at using the quotes as you are, but I will comment about:
"If I judge myself, am then guilty of judging others? It seems to follow does it not? Having lived within the christian nomenclature I am also aware of a facet of judging others to the point of shunning them and even excommunication. I have experienced both. I prefer dialog."
As I am sure you are aware, we often do judge others. What I think can set different people apart is if when that happens, we let that judgement go and step back into that peaceful state of unconditional love, and move on until we receive the next lesson we need to identify our weaknesses. If I need to look further, I recognize that whatever I am judging, if it makes me upset or otherwise unbalanced, then it is a problem with me. Not the other person.
It doesn't mean that there isn't a problem with the other person, but if I am to be true to myself and to live as an example, I must live the life of unconditional love and be an example by the way I live my life.
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Post by rdlb on Jul 17, 2014 19:30:53 GMT -6
Judging without the condemnation of others or the allowance of others having the responsibility of living their own lifestyle choices. With realizing lawless, criminal type behavior, etc. would be more allowed. I prefer to live among those is society who respect another's path although they may not chose the same path. With the idea of unconditional love incorporated into one's lifestyle, the very act of trying to live such a lifestyle does expose our weaknesses in comparison to unconditional love. And, in the very act from our heart (will, intention and desires) to promote this unconditional love, it does become an example. The Bible indicates that we are "living epistles known and read of men".
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Post by samsara15 on Jul 21, 2014 20:53:15 GMT -6
I am always very aware of my own flaws and imperfections, and thus feel very inadequate. Our task is to do the best we can with the limited intellectual and physical gifts we are given, and at the same time, to be forgiving and not too hard on others because of their own flaws. It isn't easy to do that.
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