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Post by samsara15 on May 14, 2014 18:43:27 GMT -6
think we know what we are talking about, or are superior, in any way, to anyone else, when it comes to spirituality? All we have is our own experiences and opinions. We have these so called "holy books', books, which to others, may be nothing but meaningless blather, and they might be right. Even those who think those 'holy books' mean the same thing we think they do, there are differences of opinion about how to interpret them.
IOW, we have Nothing.
What we do have is this, our shared, common humanity. Our shared feelings that we are alone. Perhaps, even that our opinions are unwanted. Bad as that is, it is something we share in common.
Yes, we can find people who think many of the same things we do, but do we, or can we, ever really achieve total agreement? No.
What we are left with is the challenge of learning how to live with deciding what is correct and incorrect about our own POV.
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Post by carpathianpeasant on May 14, 2014 18:57:42 GMT -6
think we know what we are talking about, or are superior, in any way, to anyone else, when it comes to spirituality? All we have is our own experiences and opinions. We have these so called "holy books', books, which to others, may be nothing but meaningless blather, and they might be right. Even those who think those 'holy books' mean the same thing we think they do, there are differences of opinion about how to interpret them. IOW, we have Nothing. What we do have is this, our shared, common humanity. Our shared feelings that we are alone. Perhaps, even that our opinions are unwanted. Bad as that is, it is something we share in common. Yes, we can find people who think many of the same things we do, but do we, or can we, ever really achieve total agreement? No. What we are left with is the challenge of learning how to live with deciding what is correct and incorrect about our own POV. To a small extent, age.
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Post by samsara15 on May 14, 2014 19:23:52 GMT -6
I am 72, CP, and I will soon enough be history. Too soon. And we are still left will all those disagreements. And even if we feel our opinions and judgments are no better than anyone else's, we feel we could have, or should have, done better.
Those with age as an asset agree no more with each other than those who are not.
What was your improvement on Platonic Forms, by the way? I forget, but it was a good one.
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Post by tindalus on May 14, 2014 20:49:37 GMT -6
Actually I agree with you completely Samsara. I haven't seen christians being any better than buddhists, or islams. none appear to be favored by god. None have anything to show that they alone are right. There are some individuals that outshine the normalcy in different belief systems, but no religion has a predominance of those "special" people.
So I think the key, is one has to follow their own path. There are no right or wrong paths unless you fail to follow your own path.
And before someone silly says it, I refer to a path, not one's actions. Obviously iif someone causes harm to others, then society has to intervene to prevent those that cause harm to the social structure. But that has more to do with society pressures then it has to do with some book. Books are little more than a codification of the rules to get along within a particular culture. And yes, that includes the bible and any other book.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2014 3:15:24 GMT -6
We all have a divine path to follow. That part I agree with.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2014 8:40:57 GMT -6
Actually I agree with you completely Samsara. I haven't seen christians being any better than buddhists, or islams. none appear to be favored by god. None have anything to show that they alone are right. There are some individuals that outshine the normalcy in different belief systems, but no religion has a predominance of those "special" people. So I think the key, is one has to follow their own path. There are no right or wrong paths unless you fail to follow your own path. And before someone silly says it, I refer to a path, not one's actions. Obviously iif someone causes harm to others, then society has to intervene to prevent those that cause harm to the social structure. But that has more to do with society pressures then it has to do with some book. Books are little more than a codification of the rules to get along within a particular culture. And yes, that includes the bible and any other book. I have never said, nor do I believe that my brand of religion is somehow 'better, 'truer' or the only one that counts in the long run. However, i will take this opportunity to address your statement about "society intervening if someone causes harm to others." Since we are talking religion, or spirituality, or some book' governing religious rules, standards etc, this is where I will interject my thoughts and anger about Sharia law. I've said the same more times that I can count. Sharia is the religious law that most Muslims follow and consider 'devine and un questionable' I have a huge problem with the way women are treated under Sharia. Under Sharia religion and social norms seem one in the same. Under Shatia, female children can be 'married' as young as 6 years old. SIX, however, sexual intercourse is not permitted until the child is of the ripe old age of NINE. surely all men follow this law to the letter ( sarcasm )
AND the practice of female circumcision. This practice is normal within the Muslim community and is often done under circumstances which there is no anesthesia or sterile conditions. A barbaric custom. If followers of Islam want to call this 'true and right' according to their laws, then I will state categorically that it is wrong. So tell me, how does anyone intervene against such brutal practices that have been ongoing for centuries ? I just recently read an article about an 8 year old Yemen child who died on her 'wedding night' by her 40 something 'husband'inflicting internal injuries during attempted intercourse. EIGHT YEARS OLD., but it was his 'right' as her husband. These pedophiles have a convenient cover under Sharia. Who was there to 'interven' on her part ? And now some Islamic immigrants ,in this country, want Sharia integrated into our legal system. Does this seem outrageous to you ? Seems as though it would be to everyone. But given time and 'political' correctness', I'm afraid there will come a time when Sharia will win out in this country. 8 year old Yemen child dies on her 'wedding night'
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Post by tindalus on May 15, 2014 14:02:23 GMT -6
If one reads the old testament, it isn't any better than the Koran. But I think that is the issue that many tend to forget. My problem with the bible and the Koran, is that we have grown since then. The morals of a superstitious group of people is a thing of the past. It is time to move on.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2014 15:56:18 GMT -6
If one reads the old testament, it isn't any better than the Koran. But I think that is the issue that many tend to forget. My problem with the bible and the Koran, is that we have grown since then. The morals of a superstitious group of people is a thing of the past. It is time to move on. Who exactly has 'grown' since then ' ? Certainly not some Muslim sects. This practice is illegal and morally wrong and is punishable to the max under western law. It is still practiced and celebrated in Muslim countries. Any adult male can buy an arranged marriage to a child with the blessing of the girl's' family. It is pedophilia, plain and simple and it is CELEBRATED NOW in 2014, we are not talking 'old testament days. This ''child bride' died a couple of years ago.
Are you aware of any of these 'rituals' being accepted as the norm in the US ? If so by whom and why haven't' you reported them ?
Warren Jeffs finally received his life sentence for taking minors, as young as 12 as his 'brides', and no ,it is not acceptable in the US under any circumstances. He was the exception rather than the rule. Any other American found guilty deserves the same.
Anyone who sexually abuses a child deserves the maximum the law allows.
Where do you get that these Muslim sects have grown ( morally I suppose ) and that atrocious sexual acts against children as young as 8 is a 'thing of the past'?
It certainly is NOT a thing of the past. Child bride weddings are celebrated in almost every Middle East country where Sharia is the established law.
I'm not getting why you chose to brush this barbaric custom under the rug and call it a 'thing of the past'
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Post by tindalus on May 15, 2014 16:14:41 GMT -6
Well for example, slavery which the bible supported is gone now.. I can come up with many others but I suspect you have read all this before.
The point is that time changes. We do n't support a lot of the things the bible demanded of us. Society doesn't accept it.
But having said that, doesn't mean that everything in the bible no longer applies to the modern era. Love thy neighbor for example is still good. Thou shalt not kill (which of course the death penalty violates), etc.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2014 16:37:30 GMT -6
"Thou shalt not kill (which of course the death penalty violates), etc."
That's where we run smack into separation of Church and State on a daily basis.
As A Christian, I do believe in the commandment 'Thou shall not kill"
I certainly hope I'd never have to be in a situation where I was forced to take a life, as in self defense, or in defense of another person'a life.
So at which point do we put that 'separation of Church and State into play as called for by our Founding Fathers?
You brought up the subject of the death penalty. As good upstanding American citizens, we are often summoned to jury duty.
A man is on trial say.. for the kidnapping, sexual assault and death of a child. The death penalty is on the table. That's where the rubber hits the road.
As A Christian, you ( collectively speaking ) do not believe in the taking of a life. On the other hand as an American juror, we are sworn to uphold the law.. if all evidence points to his guilt, which road do you follow ?
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Post by tindalus on May 15, 2014 17:10:50 GMT -6
Lols good question. According to the republican Nebraska senate candidate Ben Sasse, separation of religion and state allows the religious to break the law. thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/05/14/3437587/nebraska-sasse-absolute-religious-liberty/The problem is that many of the "religious" don't understand that separation of state and religion doesn't allow the religious to use their belief to oppress others, practice bigotry, or other forms of actions that show they have every interest in making their religion the law of this country. But, we should be fair, that isn't the subject of this thread and we shouldn't deviate to the political side of it. And yes, it may have been partially my fault, but hey, I do get sidetracked at times
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2014 17:22:52 GMT -6
Lols good question. According to the republican Nebraska senate candidate Ben Sasse, separation of religion and state allows the religious to break the law. thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/05/14/3437587/nebraska-sasse-absolute-religious-liberty/The problem is that many of the "religious" don't understand that separation of state and religion doesn't allow the religious to use their belief to oppress others, practice bigotry, or other forms of actions that show they have every interest in making their religion the law of this country. But, we should be fair, that isn't the subject of this thread and we shouldn't deviate to the political side of it. And yes, it may have been partially my fault, but hey, I do get sidetracked at times I'm not getting into all that at the moment. That is a subject in and of itself that deserves it's own thread, I'm speaking strictly of which path to follow concerning the death penalty. Go with your religious, moral gut " Thou shall not kill" or vote using the judge's instructions to come to a verdict according to the evidence on a capital case.
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Post by tindalus on May 15, 2014 17:47:00 GMT -6
It's why i will never be in a case that involves a capital case. I will not in any way fashion or form commit the heinous act of condemning someone to death or be a part of someone that does it.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2014 18:06:56 GMT -6
It's why i will never be in a case that involves a capital case. I will not in any way fashion or form commit the heinous act of condemning someone to death or be a part of someone that does it. I was called to jury duty about six years ago. There were three trials about to begin and jury pools were being chosen.. two were low level cases, one was a capital case. Thank God the one I was called for was not the capital case. I think I would have found an excuse, anything not to serve on a capital case.
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Post by samsara15 on May 15, 2014 18:29:50 GMT -6
I have never served on a capital case, for which I am thankful. I served on two cases, but trust my own opinion no more than I trust that of anyone else. I listened to the evidence, of which we were not given a full and total account of, because much salient evidences is withheld from juries, and made a decision. I am very glad that all was involved was money and damages. Being now over 70, I never have to be a juror again, for which I am grateful.
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