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Post by James T. Kirk on Apr 21, 2021 12:17:11 GMT -6
9 minutes 29 seconds. He wanted to be sure Floyd was dead. Ir was clearly murder by cop. I agree with Garak that it was first degree murder. There is no need for a judge and jury to determine whether Floyd violated the law or how many laws he violated. The police in this case made sure that a judge and jury were unnecessary to determine whether Floyd was knowingly passing counterfeit money. The death sentence is too often a choice taken by police, and by gun owners. Chauvin committed the gravest of sins. He will live long and comfortably in prison and then when he dies of natural causes he will spend a near eternity in the Real Hell. If you are suggesting I said a judge should now determine whether Floyd was committing a crime just prior to his death you misunderstood me. I said had Floyd complied and cooperated when first approached by the officers he would likely be alive today. I am not defending what Chauvin did and I can't argue with the verdict of the jury. I am saying it was an avoidable situation. Many of the recent incidents in the headlines today are avoidable.
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Post by James T. Kirk on Apr 21, 2021 12:21:49 GMT -6
Whether he knew they were counterfeit is an issue for a court to decide. If police officers could make such decisions on a sidewalk there would be no need for judges. What the store owner told NPR after the fact is irrelevant. In actuality they did call the police or they would not have been there. In fact, I believe there is video of the clerk following Floyd to his car before police arrive. Of course a year and a half later everyone regrets what happened and wants to minimize what part they played. In my opinion, that’s what Chauvin did. He appointed himself judge and jury. Kirk, after reading your posts for several years it is obvious to me that your career has been in the law. Whether enforcement or the judicial side does not matter. I respect your opinion however, in this case, Chauvin committed first degree murder in my opinion. He overstepped his authority in so many ways. He’s lucky that that was not what he was charged with. The picture of him kneeling on Floyd, hands in pocket and smiling showed me all that I needed to know. We will just have to agree to disagree about some of that.
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Post by garak on Apr 21, 2021 12:28:24 GMT -6
Nothing personal was implied Kirk. I was simply stating an observation. I’m sorry if you viewed it differently, no malice was intended.
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Post by James T. Kirk on Apr 21, 2021 12:40:44 GMT -6
They said he refused to cooperate. That was likely after they over-reacted to the original complaint. I don't look at the serial numbers of money that anyone gives me. Perhaps this needs to be taught in school as proper behavior. Like I said, knowing that the money is counterfeit and knowing that Floyd knew it was counterfeit, requires more evidence than the police had. You know more about the money than I. This is the first I have heard about evidence of it being counterfeit. The clerk said that he noticed it had a color more like a hundred dollar bill. I guess the media reports I heard didn't consider it important. What does the law say about required cooperation? What are you required to provide police with? Why do I have to ask this question? Maybe the media should be more diligent about informing us of what we are required to provide. I do know about the Miranda decision. We can refuse some cooperation, and insist on having access to a lawyer. "In the case of Miranda versus Arizona, in 1966, the Court ruled that, before questioning by the police, suspects must be informed that they have the right to remain silent and the right to consult an attorney, and that anything they say may be used against them in court." Let's ask the clerk if he regrets calling the police. "Store owner Mahmoud Abumayyaleh says he regrets the 911 call one of his employees made on George Floyd." ' Store owner Mahmoud Abumayyaleh has told multiple news outlets if he were at the store he would not have called police, a practice he is respected in the community for adhering to. “We don't call the police when counterfeit money is handed to us,” store owner Mahmoud Abumayyaleh told NPR Tuesday. “We teach the clerks to let one of the owners know. And we deal with it directly and tell the patron that he can, you know, give us the money, or the authorities can be called.” ' There are news accounts of the store owner saying pretty much the exact opposite of what you attribute to him, so who is to say? It's irrelevant. His clerk did call. As for Miranda, it only applies when someone is in the custody of authority and they intend to question them. Merely walking up to him on the street is not custody. The police can approach someone and question them if they have not yet arrested them. The officers who first approached Floyd did not immediately take him into custody. By the way, Chauvin was not there at that point or when the first two officers decided to arrest Floyd. Anyway, even after taking Floyd into custody they did not have to advise him of his Miranda rights UNLESS they were going to question him about the counterfeit bills. It never got to that point because all hell broke loose so trying to question him would have been pointless at the time. Again, I am not defending Chauvin and I don't believe Floyd deserved to die because he had counterfeit money. My point of this thread was that when told by court bailiffs to put his hands behind his back to be cuffed Chauvin complied. How many people might still be alive today if they had done the same thing? I just thought about the irony of the moment.
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Post by James T. Kirk on Apr 21, 2021 12:46:40 GMT -6
Nothing personal was implied Kirk. I was simply stating an observation. I’m sorry if you viewed it differently, no malice was intended. We are all just stating observations. I am not offended by anything anyone has said. I am just someone who views each situation on its own facts. I judge Chauvin by his own actions alone and not by my impression of anyone else in his profession, whether those impressions are good or bad.
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Post by lowell on Apr 21, 2021 13:35:55 GMT -6
I believe that Chauvin was belligerent and threatening to Floyd early on in his investigation. Do we have a body camera audio record of the things Chauvin said to Floyd? Floyd and Chauvin worked as bouncers at the same night club. They were aware of each other's identity. It may be that Floyd told Chauvin "You gave me that money for taking your shift."
I can speculate about these things because Chauvin offered more resistance after being handcuffed. Chauvin may have told Floyd that he was going to kill him before he got to the precinct station.
We can now determine that Chauvin was an out of control cop, a bad cop. An evil person with a badge must be quickly identified and removed from his position of authority. There are too many of them in our society today.
We have the video and audio of the pepper spraying of the soldier with his arms and hands extended through his car window (who told the cop he was afraid for his life, and the cop told him "You should be".
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Post by James T. Kirk on Apr 21, 2021 14:31:33 GMT -6
I believe that Chauvin was belligerent and threatening to Floyd early on in his investigation. Do we have a body camera audio record of the things Chauvin said to Floyd? Floyd and Chauvin worked as bouncers at the same night club. They were aware of each other's identity. It may be that Floyd told Chauvin "You gave me that money for taking your shift." I can speculate about these things because Chauvin offered more resistance after being handcuffed. Chauvin may have told Floyd that he was going to kill him before he got to the precinct station. We can now determine that Chauvin was an out of control cop, a bad cop. An evil person with a badge must be quickly identified and removed from his position of authority. There are too many of them in our society today. We have the video and audio of the pepper spraying of the soldier with his arms and hands extended through his car window (who told the cop he was afraid for his life, and the cop told him "You should be". What investigation are you referring to? Chauvin arrived minutes after the first two officers on the scene had already removed Floyd from his car and had him handcuffed and was just trying to help get him into a police car. It could also be that Floyd told Chauvin if "I get these cuffs off I'm going to cut your head off" but speculating is as irrelevant as the store owner saying that had been there he would not have called the police. I have not watched all the videos or listened to the audio from them, by I can safely speculate that if Floyd had said he got the counterfeit bills from Chauvin the prosecutors would have made a major point of it. It would have been significant in establishing motive for a more serious charge, possibly even 1st degree Murder as you have called for. "May have", "could have" and other speculation isn't fact. If there is something to support what you believe, present it and we can discuss it further. Floyd did not offer resistance immediately after being handcuffed. He began resisting only when they began to put him on the police car, saying he was claustrophobic. I find it odd that putting him in their car after removing him from his car would trigger claustrophobia. Obviously no one in their right mind wants to go to jail. That alone doesn't justify resisting arrest, which again, is what my original post was about. We can both speculate and neither of us will be wrong because only what actually happened matters. What actually happened, even according to the prosecution, is George Floyd had two counterfeit bills, a felony. Police can arrest for a felony and let a court decide Floyd's fate. Chauvin arrived and while assisting the other officers, put Floyd in a unacceptable position for an unacceptable amount of time and caused Floyd's death. Those are indisputable facts. As for the the soldier case, I have heard "about" it but have no factual information on it, so I won't offer an opinion, other than to say if the police acted improperly or illegally I will say so.
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Post by lowell on Apr 21, 2021 16:39:02 GMT -6
Having two counterfeit bills is a felony? How many people have been convicted of this felony with only the evidence of their having two counterfeit bills? Are our prisons full of people who were found with two counterfeit bills? This information has been hidden from me. Judges must have trouble sleeping at night if they have sent thousands of people to prison for this. Easily, thousands of Americans right now have two counterfeit bills in their wallet, and are unaware of it.
When Floyd became panicky at being put in the patrol car, an ambulance should have been called, and paramedics should have calmed him down with an appropriate drug, or transported him to a hospital if psychosis was the diagnosis.
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Post by James T. Kirk on Apr 21, 2021 17:05:47 GMT -6
Having two counterfeit bills is a felony? How many people have been convicted of this felony with only the evidence of their having two counterfeit bills? Are our prisons full of people who were found with two counterfeit bills? This information has been hidden from me. Judges must have trouble sleeping at night if they have sent thousands of people to prison for this. Easily, thousands of Americans right now have two counterfeit bills in their wallet, and are unaware of it. When Floyd became panicky at being put in the patrol car, an ambulance should have been called, and paramedics should have calmed him down with an appropriate drug, or transported him to a hospital if psychosis was the diagnosis. ok
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